CUBA Y EL ANTIAMERICANISMO

El Compañero escribió:Gran Dictadora, I understand your limitations with the Spanish language and perhaps that could be as source of misunderstanding on your part. Let me point out that this is a Spanish-speaking forum, therefore I will make an exception and respond to your post in English (only once). Otherwise we could move this discussion to the English section. It is not fair to conduct a debate in English when there are people here who might not be able to follow the arguments.

I believe you entered this discussion without prior analysis of the threads in each post. I will not call that lack of intelligence, merely a lapse on your part.

The issue of the medals is a response to Robert Leal’s naïve comments suggesting that in the US obesity was so entrenched in society that the school system did not even have physical education. He might not have said it explicitly, but he suggested it.

My response was that in the United States there was physical education at every level. Then, I went on to point out that US universities granted scholarships to the best athletes in the world. Finally I pointed the fact that the US historically has won more medals than any other country in the world. This is not prejudice, it is a fact. Indeed, it was the US that introduced in the late 19th century, physical exercise for women in Cuba.

I never disputed that geographical size and population did not have an impact in the Olympic medal score. There are however some exceptions you might want to consider. For instance, by the time the Beijing Olympic Games began, Cuba had as many Olympic medals as Canada in the history of the games. Cuba is an island and Canada is the Second largest nation on earth. Therefore, there are always exceptions to the rule.

It is true that in Europe you never had racial segregation, but you had other despicable ways of racial persecution throughout history – or how do you call the persecution of Jews in France and other nations in Europe for several centuries? For some reason, you conveniently forgotten about the legacy of colonialism and how the most brutal racial practices in France, England and Spain were exported to Hispanic America, Asia and Africa. My suggestion is that you read Hannah Arendt ‘On Totalitarianism.’ Perhaps from Arendt you might learn how Nazism nourished from European colonialism and anti Semitism. But you are right, you never had racial segregation, you had colonialism, anti Semitism and to crown the Twentieth Century – Fascism.

Third, the culture of hard work and dedication isn't exclusive to the US. It exists everywhere in modern society

Not every where in modern society there is a culture that values hard work. In Latin America, the popular perception of a trucker is not the same as in the United States. The popular perception of a mechanic and a janitor are different in both places. There is a historical prejudice in Latin America that does not value labour - and it comes from Spanish colonial times. Whereas in the US an accepted value in society is one’s pride in your working class parents, the same does not occur in Hispanic America.

For example, a Salvadorean in the United States could make a living, fulfill his dream to buy his own a house just from hard work in the industrial cleaning business. The same could never happen in El Salvador, Nicaragua, Honduras, Mexico, Chile, Venezuela, Argentina or anywhere else in the hemisphere where labour means hundreds of hours of work and miserable pay at the end of the month.

Also, your examples of Europe are quite limited. You make exclusive reference to Netherlands. Everyone know Holland today is the most liberal society in Europe. You could also have referred to England, since the culture of hard work in the US came from the protestant ethics.

But not in all European countries was the same. Spain, Portugal, Italy, parts of European Russia and many other areas in Western and Eastern Europe did not have remotely the same culture of hard work as in the United States. That is why throughout the 19th century hundreds of thousands of poor and starving European refugees swamped Ellis Island in New York for an opportunity, to fulfill the American Dream, to escape religious intolerance, war, repression, to have a piece of land of their own, a dream impossible in Europe at the time.

Nevertheless, if your historical examples (your concept of modernity) only reach as back as the post-1970s’-1980s Europe, then yes, globalization finally ended awkward practices in some European nations. I am aware of Cuban exiles that turned famous while living in England and Spain. Carlos Alberto Montaner and Guillermo Cabrera Infante are only two of many examples.

On the topic of education, I believe that you misunderstood Switzerland for Europe. I referred exclusively to the cost of education is Switzerland. According to Trans World Education, the student's annual budget in Switzerland ranges from SFr 16,000 to SFr 24,000 for foreign students depending on where you study. For locals I would imagine tuition and cost of living is cheaper as they might have a place to stay/family support/job/etc. But eventually not much different from tuition cost in many US universities.

When you write ‘free’ you mean socialized, which is not the same. When education is socialized everyone pays it from their taxes. In Denmark, the state finances part of the tuition and local authorities or the student himself pays for the rest. In either case, socialized does not mean free. There is no such a thing as free education anywhere in the world. In the United States the cost of education depends on whether the university is private or public-state funded. The University of Texas-Austin for example has a low tuition per semester. Students can cover it from applying to a wide variety of scholarships (based on income, academic excellence, research, etc). At the graduate level, some universities like Stony Brook cover four years of Ph.D. as part of a scholarship earned automatically when you are accepted into the program. Students also TA courses and work in university campuses. There are also loans.

In sum, I do not have anything against Europe. On the contrary, there is a lot of art, history in every European city, in every building, in every street. I also appreciate the life style and the achievements of many nations in the old continent.

La Gran Dictadora escribió:

El Compañero escribió:Gran Dictadora, I understand your limitations with the Spanish language and perhaps that could be as source of misunderstanding on your part. Let me point out that this is a Spanish-speaking forum, therefore I will make an exception and respond to your post in English (only once). Otherwise we could move this discussion to the English section. It is not fair to conduct a debate in English when there are people here who might not be able to follow the arguments.

I believe you entered this discussion without prior analysis of the threads in each post. I will not call that lack of intelligence, merely a lapse on your part.

The issue of the medals is a response to Robert Leal’s naïve comments suggesting that in the US obesity was so entrenched in society that the school system did not even have physical education. He might not have said it explicitly, but he suggested it.

My response was that in the United States there was physical education at every level. Then, I went on to point out that US universities granted scholarships to the best athletes in the world. Finally I pointed the fact that the US historically has won more medals than any other country in the world. This is not prejudice, it is a fact. Indeed, it was the US that introduced in the late 19th century, physical exercise for women in Cuba.

I never disputed that geographical size and population did not have an impact in the Olympic medal score. There are however some exceptions you might want to consider. For instance, by the time the Beijing Olympic Games began, Cuba had as many Olympic medals as Canada in the history of the games. Cuba is an island and Canada is the Second largest nation on earth. Therefore, there are always exceptions to the rule.

It is true that in Europe you never had racial segregation, but you had other despicable ways of racial persecution throughout history – or how do you call the persecution of Jews in France and other nations in Europe for several centuries? For some reason, you conveniently forgotten about the legacy of colonialism and how the most brutal racial practices in France, England and Spain were exported to Hispanic America, Asia and Africa. My suggestion is that you read Hannah Arendt ‘On Totalitarianism.’ Perhaps from Arendt you might learn how Nazism nourished from European colonialism and anti Semitism. But you are right, you never had racial segregation, you had colonialism, anti Semitism and to crown the Twentieth Century – Fascism.

Third, the culture of hard work and dedication isn't exclusive to the US. It exists everywhere in modern society

Not every where in modern society there is a culture that values hard work. In Latin America, the popular perception of a trucker is not the same as in the United States. The popular perception of a mechanic and a janitor are different in both places. There is a historical prejudice in Latin America that does not value labour - and it comes from Spanish colonial times. Whereas in the US an accepted value in society is one’s pride in your working class parents, the same does not occur in Hispanic America.

For example, a Salvadorean in the United States could make a living, fulfill his dream to buy his own a house just from hard work in the industrial cleaning business. The same could never happen in El Salvador, Nicaragua, Honduras, Mexico, Chile, Venezuela, Argentina or anywhere else in the hemisphere where labour means hundreds of hours of work and miserable pay at the end of the month.

Also, your examples of Europe are quite limited. You make exclusive reference to Netherlands. Everyone know Holland today is the most liberal society in Europe. You could also have referred to England, since the culture of hard work in the US came from the protestant ethics.

But not in all European countries was the same. Spain, Portugal, Italy, parts of European Russia and many other areas in Western and Eastern Europe did not have remotely the same culture of hard work as in the United States. That is why throughout the 19th century hundreds of thousands of poor and starving European refugees swamped Ellis Island in New York for an opportunity, to fulfill the American Dream, to escape religious intolerance, war, repression, to have a piece of land of their own, a dream impossible in Europe at the time.

Nevertheless, if your historical examples (your concept of modernity) only reach as back as the post-1970s’-1980s Europe, then yes, globalization finally ended awkward practices in some European nations. I am aware of Cuban exiles that turned famous while living in England and Spain. Carlos Alberto Montaner and Guillermo Cabrera Infante are only two of many examples.

On the topic of education, I believe that you misunderstood Switzerland for Europe. I referred exclusively to the cost of education is Switzerland. According to Trans World Education, the student's annual budget in Switzerland ranges from SFr 16,000 to SFr 24,000 for foreign students depending on where you study. For locals I would imagine tuition and cost of living is cheaper as they might have a place to stay/family support/job/etc. But eventually not much different from tuition cost in many US universities.

When you write ‘free’ you mean socialized, which is not the same. When education is socialized everyone pays it from their taxes. In Denmark, the state finances part of the tuition and local authorities or the student himself pays for the rest. In either case, socialized does not mean free. There is no such a thing as free education anywhere in the world. In the United States the cost of education depends on whether the university is private or public-state funded. The University of Texas-Austin for example has a low tuition per semester. Students can cover it from applying to a wide variety of scholarships (based on income, academic excellence, research, etc). At the graduate level, some universities like Stony Brook cover four years of Ph.D. as part of a scholarship earned automatically when you are accepted into the program. Students also TA courses and work in university campuses. There are also loans.

In sum, I do not have anything against Europe. On the contrary, there is a lot of art, history in every European city, in every building, in every street. I also appreciate the life style and the achievements of many nations in the old continent.

OK, voy a continuar en español: aún me cuesta practicar en forma activa el español, creo que entendí perfectamente lo que querrías decir a Robert. Y tambien entendí que fue una respuesta a sus comentarios, que sí he 'analizado'. Simplemente vi como respuesta con algunos fallos, que ya mencioné.

Me parece un poco raro que conectas medallas olimpicas con la superficie de un país, pero sí hay una relacion entre los habitantes y ellas. Y si comparamos por ejemplo los EE UU con Europa (eso fuese correcto) no creo que EE UU va a ganar.

Sugieres que he escrito sobre tu falta de intelegencia, pero, como he declarado antes, a mi no me gusta comentarios ad hominem, sólo he 'denunciado' tus comentarios en gordo (?). Todo el mundo hace algo no muy bien pensado de vez en cuando. Ahora fue tu, mañana será yo.

Y en cuanto a la persecución de Judios en Europa, estoy perfectamente consciente de esto, pero no es una cuestión racial sino religiosa (en general, el asunto es mas complicado, tambien tiene que ver con aspectos social-economicos y mas). Mi punto no fue que Europa es mejor que EU, ni el revès, como ya escribí. Por eso no voy a dar argumentos que concienen a este asunto (aunque no es dificil producir argumentos, va a ser un debate en el que el olla reprende el peról que está negro). Mi argumentos sólo servían para poner tus comentarios en perspectivo, si es una expresión correcta en español. El punto central de mi argumentación, y es el único que querría demostrar, fue que tus comentarios no fueron correctos, y pintaban un imagen falsa de Europa. Tampoco me parecen argumentos fuertes.

Me parece que no me has entendido bien, o que no me he explicado bien sobre la mentalidad de trabajo duro. Creo que mencioné que existe en la sociedad moderna con cierta mobilidad social. El ejemplo de la practica en Latinoamerica solo sirve para demostrar a mi que el continente no es tan moderna, porque aún existe una forma de pensar que desciende de los tiempos coloniales.

En cuanto a mis ejemplos, no me parecía buena idea de dar un montón de ejemplos, porque mi objetivo no fue ser completo, porque es una tarea imposible y eso me costaba demasiado tiempo. Sin embargo, si prestaste atención, viste que no solo mencioné Holanda, pero tambien Alemania, Noruega, Suecia, Dinamarca, Belgica. Ademas, no veo que tus argumentos y ejemplos son mas completos. Tambien son selectivos. Solamente se tratan de EEUU y ciertos paises en Latinoamerica.

Holanda es bastante liberal, sí, pero otras países Europeas lo son, Inglaterra, Alemania, Suecia, Noruega, Finlandia, Dinamarca, Belgica, Francia, Espana, Italia, Grecia, la republica Checa, y mas (excepto paises como Polonia en este momento).

No niego que en ciertos tiempos miles de personas se trasladan a America porque las circinstancias en Europa fueron catastrofal. Mi comentario fue una reaccion a tu aserción que EEUU 'es' (no 'fue') el único país donde es posible vivir en sueño americano. Esto simplemente es falsa, y en la historia de la vieja europa tambien hay muchos ejemplos de 'succes stories', no solamente en Holanda.

No entiendo tus motivos por tu exposé sobre 'free' y 'socialized' educación. Claro que alguien paga por esta educacíon. No fue mi punto: este fue que los estudiantes en muchos paises europeos no depende de los ingresos de sus padres para estudiar, y que los habitantes es dada amplio oportunidad de desarrollarse, comprendes? (Es que tu ejemplo de Suiza sugiere que es así en toda Europa) Pero muchas gracias para la información sobre como funcionan los becas en EEUU.

Estimado compañero, me gustaría mucho debatir contigo, pero espero que no rellenes lo que pienso o pensaba, y qué he leído o no. Por eso propongo que solo basa tu reacción en lo que escribí, y nada mas. Mi experiencia es que esta practica contribuye a la calidad del debate.

Y en avance mis excusas si mi tono no es correcto. Tengo la impresión que algo falta en este terreno. Tiene mucho que ver que soy holandesa (los holandeses son muy, muy directos), pero tambien con practicar activamente una lengua extranjera.

robertleal escribió:compañero>>>>>> Sigues mal interpretando todo. Yo tampoco pienso debe haber una competencia entre Europa y EU. Te recuerdo que todo comenzó con la respuesta a robert leal, que fue el primero en comparar y hablar tonterias sobre Estados Unidos. Luego interveniste tu y entre oración y oración todo se desvió como sucede en los buenos enrredos.


lueho de unas vacaciones el foro cambia y las peleas crecen veremos que se formara en cuba cuando sea libre de comunismo , los cubanos regresando de europa y lo otros regresando de america y luego biene la pelea entre mentalidades, lo que vivimos en europa diremos tonterias y lo de USA of course are the most intelience boys.... son los mas inteilegentes uhh vivieron en america en su suenno americano, uno que se llama compannero que se viste de ******** de cullo y pie y lo unico que hace es hablar tonteris que al final no le interesan a nadie y muchas ocaciones son tan largos que me parece estar leLLendo a FiDeL, entonces viene mas atras LA ahbaNeRa la super smile como l eencanta poner dibujitos se ve que en su infancia no tuvo jugetes la pobre la hace honor a su habana donde lo unico que hacen es hablar groceriass pero bueno es ahbanera uhhhh que barbara, luego biena mayra la mujer esforsada que salio de cuba crio a sus hijos con mucho esfuerso y gran educacion logro ahorrar 50mil USD habrio su negocio y ahora su unico contacto con cuba es un foro pues su vida no le da tiempo de vacaciones scheisse.....


sooooo people byeeeeee y con personas como los de aqui prefiero el comunismo ya por lo menos lo conosco.

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robertleal escribió:compañero>>>>>> Sigues mal interpretando todo. Yo tampoco pienso debe haber una competencia entre Europa y EU. Te recuerdo que todo comenzó con la respuesta a robert leal, que fue el primero en comparar y hablar tonterias sobre Estados Unidos. Luego interveniste tu y entre oración y oración todo se desvió como sucede en los buenos enrredos.


lueho de unas vacaciones el foro cambia y las peleas crecen veremos que se formara en cuba cuando sea libre de comunismo , los cubanos regresando de europa y lo otros regresando de america y luego biene la pelea entre mentalidades, lo que vivimos en europa diremos tonterias y lo de USA of course are the most intelience boys.... son los mas inteilegentes uhh vivieron en america en su suenno americano, uno que se llama compannero que se viste de ******** de cullo y pie y lo unico que hace es hablar tonteris que al final no le interesan a nadie y muchas ocaciones son tan largos que me parece estar leLLendo a FiDeL, entonces viene mas atras LA ahbaNeRa la super smile como l eencanta poner dibujitos se ve que en su infancia no tuvo jugetes la pobre la hace honor a su habana donde lo unico que hacen es hablar groceriass pero bueno es ahbanera uhhhh que barbara, luego biena mayra la mujer esforsada que salio de cuba crio a sus hijos con mucho esfuerso y gran educacion logro ahorrar 50mil USD habrio su negocio y ahora su unico contacto con cuba es un foro pues su vida no le da tiempo de vacaciones scheisse.....


sooooo people byeeeeee y con personas como los de aqui prefiero el comunismo ya por lo menos lo conosco.

.....|||||||......

Bye, bye robertico, que te vaya bien, pero "descansa" de las vacaciones pues parece que es lo unico que haces, estar de vacaciones, aunque siempre me pregunto como un camarerito que salio de Cuba el an~o pasado tiene tantos beneficios, me hace dudar. Sigue tu vida como puedas y te recomiendo que no entres a ningun otro foro pues no es tu fuerte, no conoces el lenguaje..., bueno, no conoces los dos lenguajes, ni el de los foros ni el Espa~ol, no se como llegaste a la adultez en Cuba sin conocer el idioma, jajajaja.... en serio, te deseo lo mejor, abur.

Mayrao escribió:
Pues...... coincido contigo Fabian. 100% de acuerdo

Gracias, Mayra. ?Tu sabes que hacia tiempo que este muchachito me molestaba?; sus conceptos de la vida, como escribia, no se, realmente me molestaba mucho.

robertleal escribió:compañero>>>>>> Sigues mal interpretando todo. Yo tampoco pienso debe haber una competencia entre Europa y EU. Te recuerdo que todo comenzó con la respuesta a robert leal, que fue el primero en comparar y hablar tonterias sobre Estados Unidos. Luego interveniste tu y entre oración y oración todo se desvió como sucede en los buenos enrredos.


lueho de unas vacaciones el foro cambia y las peleas crecen veremos que se formara en cuba cuando sea libre de comunismo , los cubanos regresando de europa y lo otros regresando de america y luego biene la pelea entre mentalidades, lo que vivimos en europa diremos tonterias y lo de USA of course are the most intelience boys.... son los mas inteilegentes uhh vivieron en america en su suenno americano, uno que se llama compannero que se viste de ******** de cullo y pie y lo unico que hace es hablar tonteris que al final no le interesan a nadie y muchas ocaciones son tan largos que me parece estar leLLendo a FiDeL, entonces viene mas atras LA ahbaNeRa la super smile como l eencanta poner dibujitos se ve que en su infancia no tuvo jugetes la pobre la hace honor a su habana donde lo unico que hacen es hablar groceriass pero bueno es ahbanera uhhhh que barbara, luego biena mayra la mujer esforsada que salio de cuba crio a sus hijos con mucho esfuerso y gran educacion logro ahorrar 50mil USD habrio su negocio y ahora su unico contacto con cuba es un foro pues su vida no le da tiempo de vacaciones scheisse.....


sooooo people byeeeeee y con personas como los de aqui prefiero el comunismo ya por lo menos lo conosco.

.....|||||||......